Host:
Isn’t this a relationship that Europe and America are potentially getting catastrophically wrong? The world is engaging with China, and China is investing in much of that world. Yet Europe and America see this as a threat and don’t really know what kind of relationship to forge with China.
Kishore Mahbubani:
What do you think they should do? Well, here’s a big secret: it is actually very easy to get along with China. The Chinese, at the end of the day, are among the most pragmatic, rational, and careful players on the world stage. You can make a deal with China as long as you understand and respect their core interests and what they consider off-limits.
For example, in India’s internal affairs, the logic is simple: you don’t interfere in my internal affairs, I won’t interfere in yours, and then we find ways to get along.
It’s important to understand that Western media often demonizes China. Take the Belt and Road Initiative as an example. China said, “If you want, let’s work together to build infrastructure in your countries.” Immediately, the Anglo-Saxon media warned, “China is creating a debt trap; you might end up controlled by China.” This kind of statement insults the intelligence of the Global South.
Despite this, over 145 countries applied to join the Belt and Road Initiative, showing that most of the world outside the West knows how to work with China. This doesn’t mean kowtowing; it means cooperating respectfully. The Chinese will reciprocate that respect. The vast majority of countries in the world have no problem working with China.
Host:
Do you think there is a civilization rivalry between China and the West, or is that irrelevant?
Kishore Mahbubani:
It’s astonishing that Western minds expect the world’s oldest continuous civilization—Chinese civilization—to become a cultural clone of the West as it modernizes. China will never be a replica of the West. Neither will India. They may adopt some political structures from the West, but culturally they remain distinct.
The fundamental problem is that the Western mind cannot imagine a world where multiple thriving civilizations coexist without becoming like the West. Islamic civilization will also never Westernize. The Western mind needs to wake up and accept this new reality in the 21st century.
Host:
Can these different cultures coexist and blend economically while their political and cultural systems remain distinct?
Kishore Mahbubani:
Yes. Southeast Asia is a multi-civilizational laboratory. Among 700 million people, there are 250 million Muslims, 150 million Christians, 150 million Mahayana Buddhists and Hindus, Taoists, Confucianists, and many communists. If civilizations were inevitably in conflict, Southeast Asia should be in constant turmoil.
Instead, Asia has become an oasis of peace. Minor skirmishes occur—Thailand and Cambodia, Myanmar borders—but there have been no major wars in Southeast Asia for decades. This shows the importance of respecting other civilizations and rejecting the idea that the world must become like the West. Fukuyama’s book would have been more accurate if titled The Return of History instead of The End of History.
Host:
Even Fukuyama probably no longer believes in the “end of history,” right? But aren’t there inevitable tensions in the East, like in Cambodia, Myanmar, or between China, India, and Pakistan?
Kishore Mahbubani:
Yes, the world is imperfect and bilateral problems will always exist. The key is how to manage them. Most of Asia has avoided major wars. Skirmishes happen, but not all-out conflict. Among Asians, there is a pragmatic culture: “We are different, but we have to get along. Treat each other with respect and find ways to coexist.”
Asia’s economic growth reflects this approach. For example, in 2000, the EU’s combined GNP was eight times that of China. Today, they are roughly equal. By 2050, Europe will be half the size of China. These structural changes require humility from Europeans. Condescending statements about China from leaders like Ursula von der Leyen or Kaja Kallas surprise the rest of the world. Countries outside the West rarely repeat such arrogance. The problem lies with the West.
Host:
Do you see any changes? For instance, Kyrgyzstan’s recent visit to China involved less lecturing on human rights and political systems. There seems to be acceptance that big countries can’t be told how to live. What does this mean for democracy?
Kishore Mahbubani:
Two points. First, I’m a friend of the UK. Young diplomats like me learned much from experienced British colleagues. Britain was known for its diplomatic finesse, but in the last 25 years, UK-China relations have swung between extremes—from Cameron and Osborne’s engagement efforts to Boris Johnson and Liz Truss’ condescending statements. If you want to build on Cameron’s visit, maintain consistent foreign policy toward China regardless of which party governs.
Second, democracy is not under threat from China. China does not try to export its political system or culture, unlike the U.S., which believes anyone can become American. In China, you cannot become Chinese; the system is for Chinese citizens. Over the last 40 years, China has experienced unprecedented social and economic development—the best in 4,000 years. The legitimacy of the Chinese Communist Party is strong, even without Western-style elections. History shows that bad rulers who lose public support are removed.
Host:
I meant democracy is under threat from itself. Many countries fail to improve citizens’ lives, and traditional political structures are losing credibility. Populism is rising. Strong governments that can solve problems where weak democracies struggle may not be a bad thing.
Kishore Mahbubani:
You’re absolutely right. Democracies face challenges, but the problems differ by country. In the U.S., money dominates policy, making it a plutocracy. Europe faces different issues; political and business elites are tightly connected but not in the same way. Some democracies function very well—Denmark, Australia—especially with mechanisms like compulsory voting. Democracy is not a cure-all; it’s like riding a wild animal—you must tame it to prevent chaos. Plato warned about this over 2,000 years ago.

Editor: Yangwen